More than a decade and a half ago Carole and I came to live in France with our two very young children. We (eventually) got married here and our three children (Jack was born here) have now grown up as French citizens.
We left England because I believed that the "quality of life" for a family would be better - and my conclusion - we were right. Raising a family in a rural village in the South of France is a positive thing and has benefited us all.
Sixteen years of struggle, making a living and raising three kids is enough time to begin to see how things really are - the "rose tinted specs" have gone and our experiences in creating a home, surviving and dealing with life in an environment very different to the one we came from, gives us some insight.
We have had our problems, we are and always will be, immigrants, foreigners, strangers in a strange land, ex-pats and outsiders. But this is our home. What I say in this newsletter is from the heart and meant to help, I am delighted to be contradicted - it makes me think deeper about the reasons for the questions and I am happy to change my opinion - if some positive criticism persuades me to.
I try to reply to all mail, most are questions about property or living in France. I publish comments in this newsletter which I believe are of interest and may help find answers to questions put by others wanting to come to France. By linking the points I make to our weblog at http://www.fblog.com
http://www.fblog.com I hope readers will click on the adverts which help support our overheads.
Our business is our advertising sites for property and rentals at
http://rentalsfrance.com/
http://rentalsfrance.com/and
http://1stpropertysales.com/
http://1stPropertySales.comFor example, I have been strongly advised by "experts" that the Residence de Tourisme status is all or nothing and that if it is opted out from the plan all or any of the owners will have to repay ALL the tax concessions they have benefited from in full.
My advise is ALWAYS only consider a leaseback investment as only an investment like stocks and shares and do not confuse it with a holiday or retirement property.
I have not found any second market for leaseback investments - I am sure they exist, but with the strong sell being on the new developments any investor will look to invest in this first I believe.
Here are some links on this topic
http://community.channel4.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/186602047/m/7040013241
http://community.channel4.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/186602047/m/7040013241http://www.jetsetliving.com/article/french_leaseback.html
http://www.jetsetliving.com/article/french_leaseback.htmlHope this helps
best wishes
Tony
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2. There'll be a Welcome in the HillsidesDear Tony,
Thanks for the latest newsletter.
I enjoy reading your newsletters although I don't always agree with your views! The more relaxed attitude to work is one of the attractions of France for me and we have found that services and craftspeople work differently, but just as well and as efficiently as they do in Wales. I understand that you try to discourage unrealistic hopes in the minds of potential incomers to the Midi. Here in Wales we have experienced a similar influx of English people who arrive expecting to leave their problems behind and live the ‘good life’, only to find that their problems come with them and the villages to which they have moved are not idyllic rural spaces where they can create their dreams. They are living, Welsh-speaking communities with strong identities. However, with a flexible attitude, incomers can find that they fit in and make a contribution to their new homes. And I think this can happen in the Languedoc too.
We have had a house in a village near Pezenas for several years and will shortly be moving there permanently. We have found a welcome which we hadn’t expected we have made many real friends, French and Spanish as well as English, Swedish, and so on, whom we meet socially in their homes and in ours, and our recent purchase of a garden has made us part of a whole new community of people who help each other and enjoy each other’s company. I think it would be more positive to encourage people to come to the Languedoc with a willingness to change and to learn the language (essential, of course!), the way of life, etc. OK, you may still be a Brit, but that doesn’t mean you can’t learn to fit in with another way of life which offers so much. Certainly, people who see it as a chance to live the same life but with better weather and cheaper wine should be discouraged, though!
Thanks again for the newsletters, which help to keep me in touch when I’m not there.
Best wishes,
Teleri
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Hi Teleri
You don't say if you will be planning to earn your living here when you come to live permanently. Visiting France to relax or coming to France to retire is very pleasant. Life is generally of a "better quality" for most people than many other parts of the world.
The "laid back" attitude of workers is largely caused by the fact that it is made very very difficult to earn more than the (low) average wage without coming across massive tax liabilities and other costs.
We moved to France from the UK 17 years ago and have never regretted it, but many people have found it too difficult to survive - the average period for people from the UK or USA to stay permanently in France is under 5 years. (Is it a coincidence that there is now no Capital Gains Tax relief for the first 5 years?)
I have been accused of being a NIMBY (not in my back yard) and discouraging people from coming to France, this is not true. I try to make people, who have never had to work or live in an environment of fear and restrictions, be aware that France is very different - the simple fact is that the French authorities and government systems are not tolerant and will not accept or adapt to the values and systems of the UK or the USA - and why should they?
Your comparison of Wales with the Midi is interesting, you imply the same relationship with English/British as to British/European for ex-pats in these two areas. I always thought Wales was in Britain and Britain was in Europe (although Brussels does not think so according to their maps).
We live only 10 minutes from Pezenas, do email me when you are over
best wishes
Tony
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3. Courage - et Battre les Cartes Hi Tony
Hope you move went off ok and you are now settled once again. I do find it disturbing reading your incoming letters and your replies regarding the ever increasing influx of British people to France. However it is possibly a selfish attitude I am taking because I suppose I was in the same situation when I first arrived those many years ago. The mayors of our villages did welcome us with open arms as we brought to life nearly dead places, brought in money and jobs to the area. However little cracks are starting to appear as stated with property prices being driven up. French people cannot afford to buy, so small unattractive bungalows are shooting up on less and less land and the Brits still come! Maybe the French are lucky or is it about to run out .....there is evidence of the Germans and even the Russians coming into our area.
Never mind in a few years time all the Brits will have moved to France or Spain so will we be tempted to move back!!!!!
Ted
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Hi Ted
There is a growing problem - when we arrived in our village our two infants put the population of the school up by 10% and the Mayor was delighted we helped to keep the school open.
Now the population of the village is 10% immigrant, mainly British and the same Mayor, now retired, has complained to me about French people no longer being able to afford to buy a home due to British buyers.
A bankrupt system which will have to support the health and social needs of a retired population on a weak industrial base looks like the formula for a revolution. The thought of geriatric Boudiccas on their electric carts scything down the massed civil service is amusing - we shall win of course as we will attack at lunch-time waving the official documentation, in triplicate, for our application to ask for the permission to request a street revolution on a public holiday.
The alternative is a grey, Blair infested island which daily looks like a Gormenghast scene of looney princes and corruption.
Courage et battre les cartes
Tony
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4. Building BallsupsYour help please .
I am a retired Chartered Surveyor with a house in the Morbhian close to Vannes. Through the offices of a Building works coordinator I have had a conversion carried out on the house which has gone badly wrong. I am looking for the services of a qualified building engineer to give his opinion on the work required to remedy the situation so that I can take the appropriate action against the so called coordinator who arranged the building contracts, supervised the work and collected a fee of 10% of the total cost of the work which was in the order of 60,000 euro. If you could recommend a suitably qualified person or even let me have the professional qualifications of a French building engineer I would be most grateful.
Incidentally my belated thanks for keeping me in touch through your news bulletins over the years.
Best regards.
Bill
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Hello Bill
Sorry to hear of your problems - if the person you used was a qualified "maitre d'ouvrage" or a registered architect, I believe you can get some response and action from the professional body they have to be registered with and from the local departmental offices where they have to be registered. I think in any event the arbitration clauses in the contract with them refer back to their trade association.
If the person was not officially registered than I believe they are illegal and you may have problems getting any satisfaction. Each trade seems to have a specialist consultants, the reference library in your nearest large town will certainly help you with trade directories.
Hope this helps
Tony
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5. It's Not So Bad After AllI'm Emmanuel, from Lille, northern France. I read some of the last posts on the weblog, and was stunned by the way you describe France and the opportunities to work here. Obviously the French culture regarding work is very different from the US/UK, and it's true that it's difficult to start a company or worse, a home-based business.
On the other hand, I would like to point out that the majority of the questions I read showed people wanting to set up in small towns or very rural regions like Limousin or Normandy. Honestly, I think only foreigners or old French people buy houses there, because of the rising prices (impact of the important demand from foreigners, mostly from UK people who must pay very high prices for houses in their home country as far as I know), and because like you said there's very little work opportunities in these places. I thus think these regions are great for holidays or retirements, but for people who're looking for work, they should look in the direction of big towns like Paris (obviously), or Marseille, Lyon, Toulouse, Lille, Bordeaux,... Theses towns are for the most very pleasant places, and you can benefit from the advantages of the town regarding employment, and still live in near villages or small towns.
It's possible to start a small business here (retail store or whatever), even if the "home-based business model" is not very common in France. Moreover, you should have a significant amount of money to start your company here, no matter how small it is, as you have to pay social charges and whatever, plus the place where you'll sell or produce your stuff. Someone talked about guitar lessons: I do this in complement of my day-to-day job, and I know friends who do the same: I don't believe you could make a living with this kind of stuff. The best opportunities here I think is to work in the IT or marketing field, especially for experienced US people. For others, the best bet is to provide services for the foreigners, as obviously you know very well the difficulties here, and what somebody who come in France wants to. "FranceVoila" is very good example of this kind of business Or you could explore the language field with translations, English lessons,...
Lastly, it's also true you need absolutely to speak French well. French people (especially elders) don't really know how to speak English, only young people do know. On the other hand it seems obvious to know how to speak (at least a little) the language of the country you're going to live.. don't you think? Netherlands is probably the only place in Europe where you can live without knowing any word of the country language..
Hope this helps giving a not-so-bad idea of France for you people interested in coming in!
Best regards,
Emmanuel
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Hi Emmanuel
Many thanks for your contribution.
I recall the expression "Americans live to work and the French work to live"
France is often a big shock for people coming from the UK or the USA where enterprise is respected and hard work rewarded. I agree, if you are looking for a job then go where the jobs are, but having lived for several years in Lyon and Paris, immigrants looking for employment have a much harder time than they would in London or Chicago.
You are wrong about the demographics of the south of France - Montpellier has been voted (in the magazine l'Express) the most desirable city in France for French people to live and work several years in a row. Prices in this area are higher than in Lille and Marseilles is similar to Paris for property prices last time I looked.
In the UK there is no compulsory registration and fixed fees for setting up your own business, no fixed taxation and registration overheads, few restrictions on trading and working hours.
Many of my replies to readers are to try to put some perspective on the reality of setting up a business in France - it is very different than the UK or USA and it is much more restricted and expensive.
But if the question is about the overall quality of life compared to the UK - then my vote is for France - it is not perfect - nowhere is. Ask me about sunshine, healthy eating, pollution free skies and fewer drugs and violence problems in the schools.
Best wishes
Tony
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6. Leaseback LimboHey Tony
Avid reader, always good stuff!!
Last April my wife and I placed an offer on a leaseback condo in Antibes, this is a long term investment for us but the deal has taken on an interesting and relative life of its own.
Since April the developer extended the closing date from July to December in favor of selling their second phase, a reasonable action on their part, I'm not sure if they were ultimately successful. None the less, we then assumed construction would start by February 2005 but through our own initiative found out the project start date is (potentially) April 2005.
My wife and I then began to think something else was not quite right, so I enquired further only to find that council has rejected planning for the second phase which has held up authorization for the first phase (which was supposedly already approved). It should be noted that the two phases are on separate pieces to property so it was interesting to find they have linked the two sites with respect to planning approval.
In the meantime the Notaire has $8,000.00 euro of my money, my agent has changed firms, had a baby and seems to be turning her interest to property management vs. property sales. Don't get me wrong I'm having a little fun with this, but the wrinkles keep piling up, I do have some questions which I hope you could shed some light on;
1) Is there not a shimmer of false representation on the developer to sell a plan that has in fact not been fully approved by the Mairie and secondly the agency selling the project, mind you we are dealing with developers and realtors and its in France so why am I not surprised (business as usual)
2) Assuming the developer is locked into a pissing match with the Mairie, at what point in time does a deal essentially collapse or will this limbo simply persist as long as it takes. Basically, we had a timetable that as years pass before this thing is finished does take some shine off the deal
3) Does the lease begin from the date of signing, from the closing date or on completion of the project (missed that part in the translation)
4) Are the Notaire's required to pay some interest on the funds held in trust
5) My agent, bless her soul is a sweet thing but my Labrador Retriever has better attention span and organizational skills, at least he knows exactly where all his bones are buried, where all 5 tennis balls are, and is in my face at precisely 4:30 daily for his dinner. I'm afraid my realtor is only really good at keeping her nails perfect and doing lunch, she probably reads your website so I hope she's not too offended.
I guess my point is can we switch agents mid stream or should I simply direct my enquiries to the agency she was employed with when we initially did the deal, I understand they had an exclusive on the project.
6) Lastly, can one obtain a pre-approval in principal or writing from the Bank (in this case Barclay's) without having them present an actual offer which may be time sensitive, apparently the real estate agency is sitting on my mortgage application not wanting to submit too soon, when I first met the Bankers they said I'd have absolutely no problem getting a mortgage so I'm not overly concerned here.
Wow, this started out as a quickie e-mail, next thing you know its a whole truckload of questions came tumbling out, bottom line if you replied "welcome to France Real Estate have a nice day and enjoy the ride" I'd be okay with that but if you have some gems for me it would be most appreciated.
Cheers
Fred
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Fred
Wow ! What a can of worms
Without your contract - a lot of papers - and time I don't have - it is difficult to advise, plus I am not a lawyer.
Sounds like your developer is a fool or a crook (or both).
It is not the Mairie, I think, (unless the developer is a friend or relative of the Mayor) but the planning at the Prefecture of your department you need to be taking to
You should not be leasing - the leaseback plan only works if you acquire the freehold then leaseback on a contract to a management company.
The Notaire should be holding ALL money pending delivery of the terms of your contract. But leaseback contracts allow for the developer to get their hands on money - so this may not be relevant.
In my experience, all agents are crooks - most are stupid - therefore most agents are stupid crooks.
Offer of loans are just that - an "offer" subject to probably 1,000 pages of conditions.
My advice is to get your money back - IF you are able from the cancellation clauses in the contract the Notaire has - BUT - it depends on what you agreed and signed.
There are many good property investments in France - generally France is a very very good place to invest. The law is clear, ownership is absolute and it is a popular and secure place to have property.
Borrowing in France is cheap and simple - what you get is based on proven income, not assets.
$8,000 is a lump of money - get out while you can for as much as you can is my totally unqualified advice (but my gut feel based on a lot of experience)
Do keep in touch and let me know what is happening - I wish I could help - I loathe stupid crooks.
best wishes
Tony
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Thanks Tony
Good advise, seems like this deal's got way to much fur on it, maybe it's time to kill the beast!!
Before I do I believe I'll stir the pot a little, probably get a hold of the planning dept for some more definitive info. Then I'll speak to the Notaire. Next I'll roust the Manager at the agents and see what they have to say, then finally Barclays Nice with whom I have an account, I'll see what the Mortgage Manager knows. I'll decide then and let you know, if its still ugly and I do get out with my money I might tap you for a referral to another agent.
Thanks again
Fred
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7. Build It and They Will Come - Yeah, Dream OnDear Tony,
We are in the process of buying a house in the Limousin area which seemed to be one of the last areas to avoid the "English invasion". Our house is virtually livable and we would like to convert the barn into 2 Gites with pool, hopefully to provide a modest income. With the sell of our house in the UK and business's we will have enough for the renovations and 5 years living whilst building up the Gite business. However quite frankly your recent articles have frightened me to death, they all seem to be saying stay away, France has reached saturation point. Am I being paranoid?
We have 2 kids and are simply looking for a good life, I work full time and never see them, it would be nice to be there when they come back from school and see them grow up . I thought the French would be glad to have young family in a dwindling area of young people and an opportunity for local French business to provide their services.I think we have very realistic expectations about the complications but perhaps I have rose tinted spectacles.
Your thoughts please, should I be looking into this in far more detail before making to move?
Kind Regards
Laura
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Hello Laura
You should be doing thorough market research into any venture before investing all your capital. The vacation rentals business in France is the same as any other business in the world, success depends on having customers to buy your product at a price which gives you a profit.
You can only know this after doing some thorough market research and not influence this with a dream of a "lifestyle" .
The Limosin has had a huge amount of publicity recently because prices are lower than many other regions. There may be a very good reason for the low prices, you should research the reasons why. Is it perhaps the relative remoteness of the region, cold winters, lack of commercial opportunity?
The accommodation business in France recently has had a few very bad years, there is no sign of recovery although things are bound to change. My personal guess is that for a few more years the increase in accommodation will outstrip demand, there is also a shift from basic to up-market, but at the same price. Tourism always demands improved services at lower prices as a market becomes developed. Changes always create opportunities, but by the time your read about them it is too late.
If you are basing you future on tourism, you need the facts - I don't have the latest figures, but when I did my research in 2002, the regions of Provence and Paris accounted for over 45% of all tourism in France, Languedoc 15%, Brittany 11% and in the rest of France other individual regions (there are 25) accounted for under 5% at most.
I believe property prices will rise in Limosin, but because there are many people coming from the UK to buy places and run them as Gites. These people are not your market -but what will encourage existing tourism to migrate from the established vacation areas which will be aggressively competing to retain their markets?
Yes absolutely, you should look into this thoroughly before you proceed. be totally objective and do not believe a word the estate agent tells you.
I really do not wish to pour cold water on anyones dreams and hopes, but perhaps a cold shower can be refreshing.
Hope this helps
Tony
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Hi Tony,
Have really been trying carry out as much research as possible as making and informed decision is essential. I been running my own business for the past 6 years so pretty used to carry out feasibility studies. However there are so many unknown factors I have to admit to struggling to get the right info. There certainly does not appear to be many Gites in the area (only found 2 locally) and the area is beautiful. A couple of the articles you have written recently about have really concerned me about tax and the French attitude to English people, I have always found the French to be great but perhaps all that changes once you move there?
I know that running a Gite business will not make me a millionaire but hope will allow us to pay our pay and have a good life is a warmer climate. Am I being unrealistic, perhaps you know a company that runs courses on setting up Gite business's.
Look forward to your reply.
Regards
Laura
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Hi Laura
Getting honest and accurate statistics is very hard and expensive.
Running seminars and training for prospective Gite operators sounds an interesting business in itself - but - the only ones I have ever seen are scams run by estate agents to get people to buy - not realistic business courses.
If there are only two Gite in the local area than this would ring a loud warning bell for me, why only 2?
We know many experienced and professional people in most regions who are trying to sell up their Gite businesses after 6 years. Many are French and run from 2 to 12 units. All are suffering financially.
The weather forecast for Limoges is cloudy and freezing all through this week.
If you are a successful hotel or BandB operator in the UK, then setting up in France may be something you could/should consider. Ask yourself, would you set up an IT recruitment company in Limoges?
If I knew an honest way to help people realise their dreams of moving to France I would be a squillionaire.
I really do try to be positive, it is just than most questions I get are asking for the improbable or impossible.
Willing to help in any way
Tony
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